The Door Interview with Chris Seay

On Sept.,13, 2002, 13.4 million Americans tuned in to watch the 4th Season premiere of HBO's hit original series The Sopranos, making this the first time that an original cable series beat every broadcast network in total viewers.

For those that don't watch the colossal hit (and we know where you live), the key character in this modern Greek drama is Tony Soprano. This good Catholic boy tries to be a decent family man on two fronts - first to his wife Carmela and kids Meadow and Anthony Jr. (A.J.), and then as the acting boss to his New Jersey crime family, especially his inner circle: Silvio, Paulie Walnuts and Christopher. While Uncle Junior was appointed boss after the death of Tony's father, Tony's the one who really runs the show.

The pressures of work and family life give Tony anxiety attacks, so he starts seeing a female psychiatrist named Dr. Melfi. As expected, talking about your "business" outside of the family is not the kind of thing a guy advertises in the circles Tony moves in -- it could get him rubbed out.

As the show has progressed, viewers have witnessed such highlights as Uncle Junior and Tony's late mother, Livia, trying to have Tony whacked (Season 1), Tony rubbing out Big Pussy after this alleged "best friend" ratted on the Soprano family to the FBI (Season 2), Tony ordering a hit on his daughter's ex-boyfriend (Season 3), as well as having the Feds close in and send some of the boys to jail on an occasional basis. (See http://www.hbo.com/ sopranos/ for a full update on all things Soprano.)

Madon'! It's enough to make anyone want to see a shrink. But on our meager Door salaries, fuggetaboutit. I mean, we can barely afford to drown our sorrows in tequila and tacos, let alone pay a professional to help us analyze the roots behind our nation's Soprano obsession. So, we made Door Contributing Editor Becky Garrison an offer she couldn't refuse. Go talk to Chris Seay, a third-generation Baptist preacher and Baylor University grad and a self-proclaimed Sopranos addict.

Even though he's only thirty, this dude founded University Baptist Church in Waco, Texas, and presently is the pastor of Ecclesia, a church community based in Houston filled with young musicians, filmmakers and other artists. In his spare time, Chris authored the book The Gospel According to Tony Soprano: An Unauthorized Look into the Soul of TV's Mob Boss and His Family (Relevant Books, 2002).

THE DOOR MAGAZINE: How do you reconcile your call to be a pastor with your obsession with this seemingly violent show?
CHRIS SEAY: I've got a couple of frustrations with the current state of the modern church, especially the tendency to make all the characters throughout the story of God heroes. The closest you come to what we would consider to be good people would be Joseph and Daniel. Most every other character throughout scripture is pretty screwed up. They're murderers, sexual deviants, promiscuous adulterers, liars, cheats, and thugs. What makes the biblical story so compelling and powerful is that you see sin and redemption play out, and that's what's beautiful. We've allowed scripture to lose so much of its power by pasteurizing these characters to make them what we consider to be family friendly. In the character of Tony Soprano, you see depravity and sin and redemption played out really clearly. Not only do you see redemption but you also see the need and a yearning for it. So, I see The Sopranos a lot like scripture, I really do. That's hard for some people to understand but I really do see it that way.
DOOR: So, Tony's like an Everyman for our times?
SEAY: We may not stoop to the level of murder and the like but the same selfish impulses push who we are. It's the same kind of selfish impulses that drive people like Ken Lay, here in my city of Houston, who's an active part of his church.
DOOR: Been there, done that. (See Door May/June, 2002 for our award-winning interview of Mr. L.)
SEAY: It's the same kind of selfishness and it plays out for all of us in different ways. For some of us, it creates the same kind of relational fallout and brokenness in our families and in our marriages. I see Tony as very much a neo-Solomon searching for meaning, power, money, pleasure, and many sexual partners, trying to find something that's going to sustain him and make him happy -- yet none of it does.
DOOR: How do you think The Sopranos creates the illusion that Tony is God in his own world?
SEAY: We strive for control. We want to be able to control our circumstances and the people around us. More than the rest of us, Tony grasps that because he has all these underlings that actually do what he tells them to do. Parts of his life he clearly doesn't control and that's what's driving him crazy. That's when panic sets in and this large, powerful man passes out over his grill, by his pool or in front of his refrigerator. He can't handle the fact that he doesn't have control but he longs to have it much like all the rest of us. I don't think he is portrayed as God, but at times he creates the illusion that this man really does have control. Other times it becomes really clear that this guy can't even control his teenage daughter.
DOOR: What role did Tony's parents play in his moral development?
SEAY: Tony would like to be much more like his father, whom he admires. His father was loved by his friends, was successful in the family business, and in the end for Tony, that's what he thinks success is about. If the people around you love you and you achieve some degree of financial success within the business, then that's a good life.
DOOR: But then there's his mother from hell, Livia, who died at the beginning of the third season.
SEAY: Livia is an interesting character, especially when you begin to think about how much David Chase (series autuer) projects his own mother on to her. Tony is hoping for this unconditional love from a really bitter woman who doesn't appear to know how to love. I think he is still haunted by her ghost. He wants to please her somehow but at the same time I think he knows no matter what he does he's not going to please her.
DOOR: How can Tony follow the commandment to honor thy mother when she's the one that tried to have him whacked?
SEAY: To me those are the places the show plays out forgiveness really well. In their world, that's just a part of what happens. Tony ends up in some kind of a restored relationship and a dialog with his mother and uncle, even with the knowledge that they tried to have him killed. It defies logic to me but it's so much a part of their world, where if you really disagree with someone, then you have them killed. He's really able to move beyond his mother's actions because he loves his mom and just really wants to be in a relationship with her.
DOOR: Freud never sleeps.
SEAY: I'm not sure about all the Freudian stuff going on but there is something. I think it's probably something that we find in a lot of people. Tony never feels like he's arrived because he's never experienced unconditional love. He doesn't know what that's like. I think our parents model this kind of love for us and the only other place you really experience it is through God. I think Tony's searching for that kind of unconditional love and he's never going to get it from his mother but yet he hopes for it.
DOOR: Why do you think David Chase would say that Tony's wife Carmela, the loving and spiritual matriarch, is the first one that's going to hell?
SEAY: David Chase is not sure about heaven or hell and what he really believes, but I think he is sure of one thing and that is that Carmela really is a hypocrite. While she has some religious and moral values, she doesn't live by them. I think in that world that's probably the unforgivable sin. I do see instances, however, where she experiences genuine faith.
DOOR: Could you elaborate on the significance of Carmela's prayer when Christopher was in the coma? (Season 2)
SEAY: That was one of those shows when I just thought, "I can't even believe I'm watching this on TV." To me, it was such a beautiful and poignant prayer. Like most of us, when things get really hard, our faith becomes that much more important. As things get more difficult with her family and her marriage, I think Carmela is going to run to the only real anchor she has, which is her faith in God. It will be interesting to see how deep it goes but I think that her prayer is evidence of a very real faith, as well as an acknowledgement that yes, she's chosen this life and is fully aware of the consequences but she's still asking for God's favor and forgiveness. She's aware of her hypocrisy but she's torn, and it's not so much about finances, the houses and the cars, as it is that she really does love Tony despite his marital infidelities and Mafia lifestyle.
DOOR: How would you explain Carmela's relationship with Father Phil in Season One?
SEAY: Father Phil is a young, lonely man who's isolated in the midst of the church, who desperately longs for any kind of attention from women. It doesn't seem that abnormal to me but then, I don't get the whole celibacy thing.
DOOR: Neither does Cardinal Law, Cardinal Eagan and the list goes on.
SEAY: My guess is that if almost any normal, healthy person couldn't be active sexually, they would at least, like Father Phil does, enjoy the hint of sexuality, as Carmela says to him. For me, the real pleasures in life are sex and food and he's going to fully enjoy food and at least the hint of any kind of sexuality he can grasp. I don't think that he would have gone through with sleeping with Carmela but I think he sure does like to think about it.
DOOR: How does James 1:14-15 apply to Tony's marriage?
SEAY: The Book of James describes how desire begins and eventually gives birth to something that's totally out of control. We see in Tony's marriage how the fruit of the sin of greed has brought forth jealousy and all those other things. I think we're getting to that point with their family and their marriage where things are getting out of control.
DOOR: Why do the men on The Sopranos fail to see women as equal in the eyes of God?
SEAY: I think a lot of it is the business and that kind of machismo culture. For instance, when they go to Italy (Season 3), there is a woman that's the boss there. This would never go over in the United States; no one would listen to a woman. However, it's really hard to figure out how they sustain those relationships given that ideology.
DOOR: How is Tony Soprano similar to the Roman Catholic Church when it comes to discussing human sexuality?
SEAY: Tony says that while it may be the late '90s outside, inside his house it's 1954. In his house, he's not going to talk about sex and its implications. It's a similar phenomenon within the church on the whole where there's this big pink elephant in the room that no one wants to address.
DOOR: But we often see Tony engaging in sexual acts with his mistress or a prostitute.
SEAY: Tony's views on sex are pretty astounding from a guy who makes so much of his money from the strip club, Bada Bing, and all the things that go on there -- like prostitution. Both Tony and the Catholic Church have a hard time speaking frankly and clearly about sex.
DOOR: How are the sins of Tony the father passed on to A.J. the son?
SEAY: Already, Anthony Jr. is passing out like his father. Right now, A.J. is in the midst of such an identity crisis trying to figure out who he is. He's just a kid that thrives off being loved by his peers and he's having a hard time being able to maintain any kind of direction in terms of academic stuff. That's why you see him vandalizing, playing pool, getting drunk on sacramental wine, and all the other stunts that he pulls. Most of them are searching for something that's going to give him some kind of thrill. It becomes clear after each stunt that it doesn't do it for him, it wasn't worth it and it didn't sustain him but yet he's not sure what will.
DOOR: What do you think it means that A.J. steals the sacramental wine and then proclaims God is dead right before his confirmation? (Season 2)
SEAY: A.J. is really one of the strongest spiritual seekers in the family because he's really aware of his actions. When he gets drunk on the sacramental wine, he talks specifically about the fact that he will confess this later on. When he confesses it, he won't say specifically that he stole the sacramental wine but he gave generic answers as to what went on. Then you get him being sucked into post-modern philosophy in that episode before his confirmation, where he really questions the existence of God, the problem of evil, and all of the important things. I see it as a very healthy sign for him spiritually. Most of us that have genuine faith have seriously addressed those questions, as we walk down that road toward a more mature faith.
DOOR: The Soprano family really takes the Old Testament command "eye for an eye" to the extreme.
SEAY: They are pretty into revenge, as that's the way things work in their world. If Tony doesn't get revenge, it's almost a blight on him within his circle. If someone harms them, the ethic and the rule is that you get them back.
DOOR: But when it comes to the family, they tend to embody Jesus' command to turn the other cheek.
SEAY: Within the family, there's a real propensity for forgiveness, like what you see between Tony and his uncle. Even though Uncle Junior is the "official" boss, his nephew Tony clearly subverts his authority but they still love each other as family. Although they have some rocky conflicts, they really stick it out.
DOOR: What do you think Tony teaches us about the dark night of the soul?
SEAY: As I've journeyed with the show, I see so much of myself in his despair, anxiety, and frustration. Tony doesn't feel like he has a choice, as he was born into this depraved life and therefore, he doesn't have control over the direction his life is taking. For many of us, that's what leads us to that dark night where we're really led to examine what's real and what's not in our lives.
DOOR: Why do you think Dr. Melfi chooses to prescribe Prozac instead of having Tony confront these moral consequences of his lifestyle?
SEAY: That's the difficult thing about therapy. She's not trained in trying to deal with issues of ethics, morality and faith. That's clearly what he most desperately needs. Prozac masks a lot of what's going on within him and makes it easier for him to function. In several instances, you see Dr. Melfi cross some pretty serious ethical lines. What she really has done is try to make him a better gangster. Let's medicate him so he can deal with the guilt and anxiety that comes naturally when your whole life functions around stealing and killing people.
DOOR: Dr. Melfi seems to be having her own spiritual crisis of sorts.
SEAY: She is flawed in her own right and is searching for answers to many of the same questions. Again, I think for her there are going to be spiritual questions because it's clear the answers don't lie in the disciplines that she's familiar with.
DOOR: Do you think she's also an example of that school of psychiatry that believes therapy is its own religion?
SEAY: I think it's really hard to reconcile and to synchronize the kind of therapy and views that she endorses with any kind of real faith. Either there is right and wrong, and there is an understanding of original sin or there's not. I think they are really hard to reconcile, or as many Christian therapists talk about it, they are difficult to integrate.
DOOR: Even though Christopher is a drug addict who seems to be snorting his life away, why do you think he would tell Meadow, "Don't ever say you hate life, that's blasphemy." (Episode 4; Meadow: "I hate my life, being a Soprano." Christopher: "Hey, don't ever say you hate life. That's blasphemy." Meadow: "**** you.")
SEAY: Like most of the rest of these Italian-American characters, Christopher had enough of Catholicism to know that there is this sense of divine will. He believes that God has ordained his life and we need to play it out the best we can. You don't see him doing that too often, but he's aware of it. For most of the Soprano family, there is some sense of who God is and His character and some sense of trust in who He is, but it doesn't play out in the rest of their lives.
DOOR: How do you think Uncle Junior's cancer has informed his spirituality?
SEAY: This is a guy that really has seemed to be invincible. As his brother and so many of his peers died, he's remained and eventually becomes the boss. So, to go from that place of feeling invincible to realizing, yeah, he is going to die; you see a lot of his deep questioning of faith. My favorite scene is when he's contemplating prayer cards at a funeral. He says, "I can't figure out why people don't trade prayer cards. You get thousands of dollars for Honus Wagner and jack **** for Jesus." (Episode 31) In the midst of house arrest and being sick, he has some questions about faith that haven't seemed to lead him anywhere, but those questions are clearly there.
DOOR: Moving on to other intriguing thoughts, what qualities do you think that Big Pussy shares with Judas Iscariot?
SEAY: Both Big Pussy and Judas genuinely love the one they follow. While Tony and Big Pussy were very, very close, Big Pussy didn't move up in the criminal family as fast as others. So, I think there is some jealousy and animosity there and he ends up taking that out on Tony. It doesn't play out real clearly in scripture, but my inkling is that like all the other disciples, Judas wanted to be like John, the disciple that Jesus loved. They want to have the top ranking and be the one that their leader turns to. I think that's where most of the similarities lie.
DOOR: What characteristics do you think Paulie Walnuts shares with his namesakes the apostles Peter and Paul?
SEAY: Paulie is named after both Peter and Paul, which I think is really amusing. He does share some of those characteristics we see Peter display when he cuts off the ear of the soldier that comes after Christ. Also, like Paul, Paulie is a go-getter, who's out there creating new opportunities for the business. However, while Paulie is protective, the last few episodes of the third season really led up to the potential for Paulie to betray Tony.
DOOR: How does one become a better person by watching a TV series that so clearly disregards the Ten Commandments?
SEAY: As the show plays out, it becomes clear that this isn't working for Tony, just as it didn't work out for King Solomon. By the end, Solomon's life was pretty empty and that's what you get out of Ecclesiastes. The emptiness of that search, to try and find meaning apart from God. To me, the premise of the show is that if anybody could be happy apart from God, The Sopranos could because they're eating great food and they're pursuing all kinds of extreme pleasure and sexuality. They've got money, power, respect, and fame. Yet, they know it's not working for them. As we walk through it, I think we see our own propensity to think that we're going to find some kind of meaning and satisfaction in those same things. The reality is what Paulie said, that "it vanishes as fast as you get it. It's like your breath and it's like cotton candy. As soon as you taste it, it's gone."
DOOR: Why do you tell fans of Pat Robertson not to read your book?
SEAY: I forgot that I said that. It's probably just to avoid the hate mail I'll get later on. I get enough of that with other things that I write.
DOOR: Join the club - let's see we've ticked off the Church of Scientology, Benny Hinn, Dr. Dobson, Robert Tilton, and the list goes on and on and on…
SEAY: I pretty much figure really conservative evangelicals are not going to enjoy this book. It is just saying, "Open your mind a little bit and think outside the box." To me, that's thinking like Christ thought. Christ was such a great spiritual teacher because, as He walked around, He just began to allow all of what was around Him to become the sources of spiritual truth. My greatest frustration with the church is the fact that we've built this wall between church and culture. Essentially we've said, "We don't want to participate in a broader culture, we don't think it has anything to offer."
DOOR: How would you respond to the Italian American groups that are critical of the show's depiction of their heritage and religious beliefs?
SEAY: Clearly in all of our heritages there are seedy elements and some are more fascinating to the rest of us than others. In Italy and throughout Europe, as well as the United States, this show is wildly popular. So I just say, "Loosen up, and learn to laugh and enjoy." In the end, this show is such a dark comedy that I laugh through most of every episode because I see myself doing some of the same things.
DOOR: At the risk of offending our one Orthodox Jewish reader, let's talk about why you think The Sopranos is the stuff of good Midrash.
SEAY: I find that when I watch the show with other people, there is always a dialogue and a discourse that emerges immediately out of it. Below the surface of what's going on with these characters are some really deep questions of life and faith. If you go out to message boards and websites that relate to this show, you'll find these huge discussions going on. People want to process what they see in this show. Sometimes it's so disturbing you have to process it, like the episode where Dr. Melfi is raped. It's really hard to see that but it draws out other things within you as you begin to dialogue about what you've seen. If my book creates some new dialogue, I'd be really pleased.
DOOR: Could you elaborate a little bit on David Chase's religious background and how his upbringing influences The Sopranos?
SEAY: He's made it clear that he grew up in a strongly Protestant family, which is rare for Italians in New Jersey. His parents met at a Baptist youth group and he was raised going to Baptist church and Sunday School. What he particularly says about faith is, "it never quite took." But I think it's clearly all over The Sopranos and other projects that he's done, as well. I think he is searching to figure out what he really does believe. It's going to be interesting to see where he ends up. I'm anxious to get to interview him.
DOOR: What do you think you would do if Tony were your parishioner?
SEAY: I have wondered if we would accept his tithe. I don't really know on that one. There are times you see someone like Paulie go to the priest and say that he's given money to the church and therefore, he expects something in return, like protection. These are people you don't want to mess with, so you don't want to take their money. At the same time, there is something about really genuinely giving or really seeking. We're just full of people that are in the throes of real depravity, in the midst of similar times. I believe it's the same struggle that we've seen with biblical characters. There can be a real searching for God in the midst of that. So I'd walk them through that stuff. I'd hope to get to a level of honesty that you don't see in a therapeutic setting. Therapy is not getting Tony anywhere. He's going to have to escape the moral never-never land that exists within his therapy sessions and face the reality of sin and redemption, and begin to walk down that road, and begin to seek the divine. It would be interesting to see a character like him go on a spiritual quest of sorts.
DOOR: And then we'll drop by for another interview. Till then, Ciao.

Episode 33
Carmela: "I am not the one who needs mental help. I just needed to vent."

Episode 30
Dr. Melfi: "I've been charmed by a sociopath."

Episode 28
Tony: "Is that right, wishing her dead? Is that being a good son?"

Episode 22
Dr. Melfi: "I am living in the moral never-never land with this patient. Not wanting to judge but to treat. But now I've judged. I took a position, damn it, and I am scared."

Episode 20
Anthony Jr.: "What does she know?"
Tony: "She knows that even if God is dead, you still gonna kiss his ass!"

Episode 8
Livia: "I'm sure he's telling his psychiatrist it's all his mother's fault."

Episode 5
Meadow: "Are you in the Mafia?"
Tony: "I'm in the waste management business. Everybody immediately assumes you're mobbed up. It's a stereotype, and it's offensive."

Episode 2
Tony: "You gotta stop. You gotta stop with this ... this black poison cloud all the time 'cause I can't take it anymore."
Livia: "Oh, poor you!"

Episode 1
Carmela: "What's different between you and me is that you're going to hell when you die."

Episode 1
Dr. Melfi: "With today's pharmacology, no one needs to suffer with feelings of exhaustion and depression."
Tony: "Here we go. Here comes the Prozac."

Episode 1
Tony: "It's good to be in something from the ground floor. I came too late for that, I know. But lately I'm getting the feeling that I came in at the end. The best is over."

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